Understanding what went on in court yesterday in the US deportations case

14 thoughts on “Understanding what went on in court yesterday in the US deportations case”

  1. Just wanted to say this kind of analysis is vital to us right now. It is easy to become overwhelmed with the sheer craziness of what is happening. But this at least reminds us that all viewpoints and actions are open to interpretation, analysis and comment. Judges are now both the line of defence against authoritarianism and the principal targets. We shall see how they cope. Good work by DAG again. You are doing a public service- and I truly mean that.

  2. Excellent work again, David.

    One thing struck me about the “planes are in international airspace so jurisdiction doesn’t apply”; I recall from Howard Marks’s book that, when he was arrested in Spain, they put him on an American plane and he was told that “an American aircraft is regarded as being on American soil, regardless of where it is”, which was their justification for his being under US jurisdiction at that point.

    Is this the case, and if so, would it not have applied here also, this rendering the “planes were in international airspace” argument moot?

  3. A minor point. 3 UK jurisdictions? Doesn’t the Sennedd in Cardiff have law-making powers in some, devolved, matters. Joining Scotland, Northern Ireland and the UK as jurisdictions. Notwithstanding that there aren’t separate courts.

    A more important one. As you have set out elsewhere, the Trump administration doesn’t recognise the power of the judiciary over the executive. It is a category error to think that law applies. It doesn’t matter to Trump and his henchmen if the court tells them they are acting unlawfully. The government’s legal representatives just haven’t been told not to use legal arguments yet – but they are gaming playing for appearances’ sake.

    1. Dan, I am afraid your minor point is an incorrect one. Wales does not have its own jurisdiction. That Wales can make its own law makes no difference to jurisdiction, which remains that of England and Wales. You are perhaps confusing “choice of law” and jurisdiction.

      1. My initial response to this was intended to be good humoured, but I now have had two rather upsetting and unpleasant comments, so I have deleted my original comment.

        I obviously got both the tone and content wrong, and I apologise. It was not intended, let alone “spiteful”.

    2. I think the ‘Trump and his henchmen’ thing is interesting. There are the henchmen (from the German ‘Henker’, executioner), and there are those who say ‘No’, as quite a few honourable members of the judiciary have done, along with other public servants.
      Court orders are ultimately, enforced, executed, by state-authorised agents. Those agents are being required to choose, whether to enforce the orders of courts, or to obey Trump’s orders. So far, ICE at least are complying with the Trump crew, but these proceedings may focus some ICE officers’ minds, and a whole swathe of people, police, military, etc. may be having their minds focused too. I can’t imagine Trump’s team have endeared themselves to career military people, for instance. All of those agencies are lawyered up and there must be some fascinating conversations going on behind closed doors.
      Let’s hope the cadre of ‘henchmen’ diminishes and that of honourable state agents increases.

      1. If you work in the executive and disobey the Trump White House, then you either resign or “You’re Fired”. These honourable state agents are then simply replaced with more pliant ones. Those pliant ones need not fear the judiciary. Trump will pardon them if it comes to it. They may have cause to worry about their future careers though. Lawyers should be concerned about reputational damage at least, and perhaps disbarment.

  4. Thank you David. I always value your dedication to distilling the essence of an issue into clear and easy to understand terms. I would like to add another perspective though, not necessarily a legal one, that this whole circus was a deliberate test. More specifically, it’s was a test to see how things went down in the court of public opinion, to help inform the longer term strategy to introduce extra judicial ‘justice’ and authoritarianism; to give the current regime a free hand to do what they want unshackled by the rule of law.

    They are adept at using technological tools (think Cambridge Analytica) to analyse how particular messaging or events play out with different groups, then tweaking the message and strategy over time. This was a big part of their election success, and I see no reason why they wouldn’t use the same tools to cement and increase their power.

    I suspect that at some point within the next couple of years there will be similar tests around removal of the two term presidential limit, full immunity and/or discharging of previous convictions for the president, that those disagreeing with, or investigating the president are subject to criminal sanction and so on. Speculation, of course, but should it happen, somewhat unsurprising.

  5. I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking the quote from “All the President’s Men” is applicable and appropriate to most political disasters.

  6. Trump is playing games with the judiciary with a view to seeing how far he can push things to suit his agenda. This should be viewed as part of a wider strategy to subvert democratic rule in the USA, in my opinion.

  7. Thank you for this analysis.

    They got their headline though, and I fear it will be quoted more often than the legal details, just as “activist lawyers” were so derided in the UK.

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